Join Dr. Bethany with Bart Foster, Founder of BusinessOutside, and Managing Director of Sanitas Advisor. Bart is also the author of BusinessOutside: Discover Your Path Forward, a book that offers a science-inspired philosophy that reimagines corporate culture by bringing business outdoors. In this episode, Bart will share how leaders can leverage the power of nature to build stronger teams and transform their company culture.

BusinessOutside: https://www.businessoutside.com/

BusinessOutside: Discover Your Path Forward: https://www.amazon.com/BusinessOutside-Discover-Your-Path-Forward/dp/1544530749  

April 26, 2023

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Bart Foster: We don’t connect with our staff in that way we just go through the motions, and we make up stories in our head.” I wonder why Sally is such a bitch today?” Well, her cat died like we didn’t even know because we didn’t take the time to ask.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Hi, I am Bethany Fishbein, CEO of The Power Practice and Host of the Power Hour Optometry Podcast, and I’m sitting in New Jersey where it’s 60 something degrees and sunny today, beautiful day to be outside so it seems timely that I’m sitting inside but talking with Bart Foster, who is the Founder of a company called BusinessOutside. He’s the Managing Director of Sanitas Advisors and the author of a book called Business Outside: Discover Your Path Forward, published last year and that’s what we’re talking about today. So Bart, thank you so much for giving me the time and being here to do this.

Bart Foster: Absolutely. Look forward to talking.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Awesome. And I will just throw in for a personal note for my daughter Tali who may be listening and she’s heard some of my stories from summer camp in the 80s and you are not the bark from the stories that’s a completely different part. Just so she knows. So

Bart Foster: wow, we’re gonna have to get into that a little later. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: We might have to or not

Bart Foster: Whoa, okay, guys.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So I mean, talk about the concept of BusinessOutside because it’s, it’s a little bit of an unconventional way of approaching meetings and humans, like, just talk about the concept in general.

Bart Foster: Yeah, and I think when people first hear business outside, oh, that’s in nature, we’re going for a hike and things and there may be a piece of that. BusinessOutside is about outside of corporate norms, outside of our comfort zone, doing things differently. And we find that nature obviously is a backdrop and it’s, we call it our silent partner. But it’s not just outside of nature. It’s doing things different. And there’s enormous examples of that. But I was, you know, I was in Novartis, I was in the eye care division for a number of years, and I had a startup and I ran my own company and I would go to these meetings and you’re stuck in a ballroom in a hotel conference room and your might be in this amazing destination, but you never get outside and you’re going through the standard motions. So we’re trying to help people realize there’s a different way that we can interact. There’s a different way we can do business, and it’s about the human connections. So I’m sure we can dive into some of that.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah. So when people go to a conference or they have a meeting, I mean, you’re right, the norm is you go and it might be somewhere cool or not. But sometimes, you see the inside of a hotel or the inside of a conference room or meeting center. So what’s the difference in how people are or relate to each other in that setting versus what you think it could be or should be?

Bart Foster: Yeah, so for me like networking is a dirty word. And the reason is because most people do it wrong. And it’s all about superficial conversations, and “We should catch up some time”, and “That those are cool shoes” and you know, “How are your kids?”.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I’m with you like so 1000 percent here just even you know.

Bart Foster: No one cares

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: one thought of it.

Bart Foster: What do you do when we should you know, “Let’s catch up some time”. It’s like, “We’re right here. What do you mean like, well, let’s catch up right now?” But it’s because most people don’t realize there’s a different way to kind of get to know each other. It’s not about networking. For me, it’s about building relationships, in real connections and authenticity. So what we find is, in one of the signature things, you know, I created an innovation summit for the eye care industry. Five years ago, we mixed CEOs of the industry with eight startups. And the first year I did it I had this optional hike on the agenda. And I would say about half the attendees showed up for the hike. It was like 12 people. Well, the whole three days that became the number one thing everyone loved it so the next year, we didn’t make it optional. It was a requirement. We call it the connection hike. And what we learned is there’s something special that happens when you’re walking shoulder to shoulder with somebody you’re not making direct eye contact, and clothing doesn’t matter. And you’re just you’re walking in, you’re moving and you’re in fresh air and you’re not making that eye contact. And for me, I realized that I’m more vulnerable and more authentic. So we extend that into teams. But that’s some of the magic is being able to develop deeper relationships in real connection in a way that people haven’t done before.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So maybe this is like a dumb question, but is that what it’s supposed to be? Like in the role I’m in it for a year and a half and still new to this whole networking, schmoozing world, and like when people meet at something work-related, a lot of times like the conversation feels like they are just looking for something from each other. Right? You meet somebody at Vision Expo. They want to sell you something or a rep comes into the office. They want you to grow your account or your market share. Like are you really

Bart Foster: Transactional

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: supposed to get to know people? Talk more about, what the kind of relationships you’re talking about can create?

Bart Foster: So I don’t believe there’s a personal you and a business you know, it’s just you and to be the most the happiest, the healthiest, the most productive life. For me, I found that I have to be authentic and I have to be real. And to me some of the most powerful relationships that I have are when you know you have that trust and vulnerability and you can share with each other and you break down the walls and you get to the real feelings and the emotions that people have. And it’s not transactional people like to buy if you think about from a sales perspective people want to buy from people they like. How do you know if you’d like the person or not? If they’re just coming in and they’re selling stuff? No one No one wants that. So it’s not a dumb question. It’s something that I think a lot of people wrestle with, and we were never taught that growing up.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah, I mean, it feels like sometimes you’re almost taught the opposite. You know, you hear in sales always be closing and let’s think about who we’re going to meet and what they might be able to do for us or, or something. So your thought is to get out of that and just get to meet humans, people because they’re interesting, and we’re energized by real connection.

Bart Foster: I’ll give you a framework to think about. So think about a bell curve, right? If you draw a bell curve, for those people listening, you can just think about, think about your bell curve, the biggest part of the bell curve, the middle, that’s 70%. That’s 70% of the conversations that we have in life. “How’s the weather? How’s your job? Oh, that’s a cool car! What do you think’s gonna win the Super Bowl?” it’s all superficial is right in the middle. The 10% on each side of the bell curve, positive and negative. That’s where you get a little bit deeper. You get to the feeling, get to the emotion maybe. And then the 5%, the tail the very end the tail, the bell curve. That’s where people rarely go. Could be some secrets, you know, deep dark stuff. Maybe you share with your spouse, maybe a really close friend, but that’s it. Right? I’ll give you a really quick example. So imagine 70% Right, I’m Bart. I have two kids 17 and 19. That is pretty good. I do consulting at speaking executive coaching. I have a business called BusinessOutside. Recently wrote a book, random on this podcast, used to spend a lot of time in eye care. I have a really flexible schedule. I can be home when my kids are home. My son comes home from high school, everyday drops his bag, I’m out of your dad and he goes and hangs out with his friends. And I feel like I’m an empty nester. And it makes me sad. And sometimes I feel alone in my own house. If I went to the 5%, you’d know that I had a business that I founded. We put health kiosks in fact, it started with a vision screening kiosk and we scaled that business to 5000 locations. And I learned a really valuable lesson along the way when you when you raise 50 million in capital, it’s not your company anymore, and the chairman forced me out of a company I founded. When that happened, I was embarrassed and angry and lost my personal identity like without the CEO title who was I? You see the difference? 70, 10, 5? 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah, sure. 

Bart Foster: And I can use that example. It takes just a second. It takes two minutes, but people get it. And what I try to help people realize and the people listening I think if we can just get outside of the 70% just a little bit. You don’t have to go to the 10% You don’t have to go to 5%, just get out of the 70% just a little bit. So instead of a cocktail reception. This is this is like real, you know, you can use this. Go to trade show you meet somebody have it. You don’t know what typically comes up. “Oh, what do you do?” That’s the worst question because it puts people on the defensive and then they have to like posture and figure out what they can tell you so it sounds impressive. How about starting with a different question? Maybe like, “What’s bringing you energy right now? What brings you joy? What are you most excited about in the next quarter?” Let’s get to a real question because then you can have connection. I have a buddy Chris Tuff. And he wrote a book called Save your Asks, and he how he talks about the race to the middle. How do you find common interactions? The Race to the middle is, How do you get to an emotional connection with another person? And it could be something in their background, something you related to something that you can relate to. So a lot of what we talk about is establishing you know better connections. With people and eye doctors can do this every day, not only with their patients but with their staff.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So did you get to this because this was something that you felt was missing in your life? Like, Did you get to this by doing it wrong and thinking there’s got to be a better way? Or

Bart Foster: For sure

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Or were you always like this and you watch people and you knew your way was better? Like, talk about your own path into making this a priority in your own interactions.

Bart Foster: Yeah, so I joined a group called YPO Young Presidents Organization. This is back 12 years ago, I was living in Atlanta, and they kind of built it as, Hey, this is your own personal board of directors. And it’s other CEOs similar to you different industries. You’re going to get together once a month and share family personal business, you’ll go really deep I didn’t know what that meant. And the first interaction I had with them was a retreat and had a facilitator who drew that bell curve. And he gave the example similar to what I just gave. And he started tearing up and I was like, holy cow, like this guy, I don’t even know. But all of a sudden, I felt the ability to be a little bit more vulnerable myself, which is what happens when someone else is vulnerable. It gives you permission to do the same. And then I opened up a little bit and all of a sudden guy next to me and he said, Oh yeah, that happened to me. And you had that grown up to and all of a sudden you have these shared experiences and we weren’t giving advice we were sharing experiences that we all have. And what I realized that wait a minute, if I can go deep and have these connections in these conversations, I didn’t even have this with my own family. And it put me on a whole different path. And I realized that the more vulnerable I was, the more authentic I was it gave people permission to say, and my relationships get stronger. The discussions were richer. And it was just, it was so like refreshing. So now I mean, that’s just my default. And people know like, we go for a hike, they meet at my house or hike up the hill and by you know, before we even get 10 minutes in, I’ll share something, you know, it’s usually Hey, I got forced out of my company or I feel like I’m an empty nester and whatever it is, and all of a sudden, you start developing the this relationship.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: And I don’t want it to sound wrong what I’m asking the sentence in my head is like and then what are their relation? Like what is forming that relationship do but that’s not that’s not exactly what I mean. It’s not like oh, okay, so this is another way to get what you want. Like what did these relationships do for you? That’s that’s not what I’m asking. It’s how does having those kinds of relationships with people that ordinarily you’re not close to, right, so you’re talking about the, the YPO group I mean, the first time you went and those are business colleagues and strangers, you’re talking about as optometrist be able to have that with a patient. What changes in life as a result of having that?

Bart Foster: A lot. It brings me joy to know that I’m building an authentic relationship with someone else. There’s a great book I read, it was 22 years old. My dad gave it to me and I’ve read it. I’ve probably given it to 200 people. It’s called “Dig Your Well Before You’re Thirsty” and it’s by Harvey Mackay. Dig Your Well Before You’re Thirsty, it’s about building relationships way before you ever need them. If ever. One of the examples he gives in the book is he talks about how many people could you call 2 in the morning and ask for $50,000 I think at the time when he wrote he was like 20 grand, whatever, it doesn’t matter, whatever the number is. For most people, it’s like four or five people for Harvey was like 50 And I remember thinking I wonder how he does that. Well, that’s what a lot of the books about you have to build these relationships, stay in touch with people, send them a birthday card, tell them how you feel. You’re in their city, you call and you call up. And all of a sudden, I started doing that when I was 22. And I started building relationships way before I ever need them. So a patient comes in you start building relationships, who knows? 10 years from now that person might be the president of something that has tickets to the and they’re like, “Hey, do you want to go do you want to take your daughter to you know that play?” Because you started developing these relationships on. It’s hard to answer what was it? You know, what’s it gonna bring you. but I think that’s the fallacy. I think people that are transactional, that are into the networking, and you see them all the time, right? They have a stack of business cards, they walk into the room, they’re talking to you two minutes into the conversation. They’re looking over your head. They’re trying to figure out who they’re gonna talk to you next, and they’re just collecting business cards. They’re trying to figure out who would I have to meet? That’s transactional. That’ll work short term doesn’t work long term. And from a patient. I mean, you know, you’ve been to doctors, dentists, different things. The ones you have a relationship with a personal relationship. They tell you a little bit about their kids. They talked about the weekend, what’s going to happen. There’s feelings there’s emotions being shared. It’s not transactional. There’s the ones that stay for a long time. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Talk about how to bring that into, into your office as as an optometrist, so you talked about relationship with patients just starting with a different question. Right? And that feels easy enough, right? Instead of, “Oh, it’s so nice out today”. Or whatever, you know, just starting with something that’s like, a little bit of a deeper ask or being willing to share something about yourself. Talk about it with your team. What do you think?

Bart Foster: Yeah, give me one. So, typical practices, and you correct me if I’m wrong, you’ve been in hundreds. If they open the doors at nine, right, people show up at 830 and they’re getting their stuff ready and they’re, they’re cleaning off the counter and making sure everything’s set. And then two minutes before they open the door. And the day starts, right? That’s usually how it works. What if 10 minutes before you open the door, you got in a circle, and you just breathe for a minute. Really deep breath in. Deep breath out. Right? Really deep breath in, right? You just think about how do you want to show up for the day? And then you do quick check-in with each person. 30 seconds. How are you feeling? checking in today? How are you feeling coming into work? mentally, emotionally, physically? How are you feeling mentally, emotionally physically? Is there anything holding you back from being completely present and just being all in for today? Before we get open the doors? Somebody might say, you know, I? I feel that energy just had a couple of cups of coffee. Really proud because my daughter was in this play last night so super excited. Afterwards, had a couple glasses of wine so I’m a little bit foggy this morning. Otherwise, I’m here. I’m ready to go. Somebody else goes. I’m here. I’m focused. I gotta tell you, my cat passed away last night. I’ve had her for 20 years. And she started crying a little bit. It makes me a little sad. Otherwise, I’m here, right? The whole thing takes six or eight minutes but we don’t connect with our staff in that way. We just go through the motions, and we make up stories in our head. I wonder why Sally is such a bitch today, well, her cat died like we didn’t even know because we didn’t take the time to ask. People all want the same thing they want to be seen. They want to know that they’re adding value to each other. Right? They want happiness. So that’s one that’s one idea. Another is when you’re going to do one on one conversations, go outside, go for a walk. You could be in the middle of a strip mall, in the Midwest in the middle of winter. Put on your coat, you go for a walk, and you just talk you talk about real stuff. You just take a mental break, but it’s proven you get outside people are more productive, they’re happier, they’re healthier, and just it just takes a little bit of a reset sometimes.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I think there’s value you said it before about being shoulder to shoulder and facing the same way. It’s like my kids are the same age as yours. And you know those parenting conversations that are so much easier when you’re in the car than if you’re trying to sit face to face looking at each other. There’s just something about like connection without eye contact that lets you talk a little bit more freely let’s you receive a little bit differently. You said it’s proven there’s like what’s the there’s like studies or just everybody knows it? I feel like all the parents I know know that.

Bart Foster: Know their studies. You can you can Google it. It’s like side by side walking more. vulnerability, authenticity, like it’s been proven.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So when you’re having that, like you go for that walk with a staff member and having that real conversation. Is there a risk to that? Like finding out too much or sharing too much because I I feel like I get that question sometimes of what if somebody tells me something’s going on in their life and that’s why they’re such a bitch today and we don’t have to edit that out. And now I know so can I not tell them that they need to adjust that attitude or can I not get what I need as a boss because I know their cat died? You know, what am I asking?

Bart Foster: I do. Yeah, I think you’re asking is there a risk that if you share too much it can be used against you in a negative way.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Even I mean even used against you in a negative way by yourself. So once the patient start coming in, you got to take care of patients. And so having that it’s like a safety if you don’t know anything going on, you can say, “Listen, I need you to get your head in the game. I need you to have a smile. I need you to be kind I need you to be more patient”, right? If you know and you’re involved in caring about somebody’s personal life. I’m playing devil’s advocate to your question here because I’m, I’m all in it. Like I go too far in your direction here. But when you know all that do you then feel like “Oh, okay, I just have to let mistakes go today because I know that they’ve got this personal thing going on, or yeah, this is really an issue how that patient was handled, but I can’t say anything because they’re already so stressed. I don’t want to add to something on top of it.”

Bart Foster: I think you’re answering your own question. I think there’s a way that you can deliver that message knowing the knowledge that you know, the woman’s cat dies, right, and she’s clearly distraught because she told you about it. Right. Well, you acknowledge it. You say that, “Hey, I hear you.” You might even have a shared experience. “I had an experience similar to this five years ago. And here’s what happened to me, right? So you’re acknowledging you’re showing empathy. It’s really important that we show up for our customers today and I know you’ll do your best”. So you’re getting across the same message where if you come in with the hardy in you didn’t know and you’re like, “Hey, I don’t know what’s wrong with you, but you got to get on it.” Like that doesn’t do any good. And it might do good in the short term, but all of a sudden, Sally goes home, she’s crying. She’s like, my boss is a jerk, doesn’t understand. And all of a sudden four or five of those things happen. That’s why people leave. People leave because they don’t like their boss, or they don’t have friends at work. In fact, if you have a friend at work, you’re 35% more likely to stay.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I’ve seen that on teams. I’ve been in offices, where we’re called into consulting and the general staff feels that they so strongly dislike the practice owner, they hate their boss, but they just have such a connection as to their co-workers, that they’ll stay years in a position because they don’t want to let down their team and said such an interesting thing to observe. Like, you don’t like your job, you don’t like what you’re doing. And you’re right, they’ll stay because they’re friends. So talks about the power of nature here because there is a difference in those conversations and it’s it makes an impact even to want to have them I was I was talking to someone who you had mentored for a little bit and he was telling me that when he met you initially, you said “Yeah, I’m happy to talk here. Come on out to if you’re in Colorado, we’ll go hiking.”

Bart Foster: Yeah, I do those hiking meetings quite often. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Okay. 

Bart Foster: So your questions like, What is nature do and how does it work or? 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah, so like when you do that hiking meeting? I mean, for me, one of the things that that has value is it just blocks your attention from everything else. It kind of eliminates distractions, because when you’re meeting in the office, it’s, you know, those Oh, excuse me, just one second. I’m so sorry. I know you’re meeting but can I? So it just gets away from all that. What else?

Bart Foster: I mean, if you think about it, right, humans have been on an earth almost 2 million years. Yet for 1,999,700 years. We’ve been outside. It’s only since the industrial revolution really, that we’ve added offices and cubes, everything our bodies were meant for that. were meant to be in clothes. It’s like we’re caged animals. So it’s natural that our bodies feel this and we get outside and you feel the endorphins and you feel and you’re moving and you feel the sun on your face and the cold wind, it’s more natural. And then walking and shoulder to shoulder and you’re not making direct eye contact. Yeah, there’s a reason why they tell you to have conversation. Your kids in the car. It’s proven, right? You’re more authentic and vulnerable when you have those interactions. So nature. I say it’s like our silent partner. Because a lot of times we would do these events will take people called the connection hike. And I’ll give him a prompt and I’ll say “Hey, get with somebody you haven’t met. And you know what I love to start with is think about something you celebrated you’re proud of. In the last six months, something you celebrate your product now follow me”. We share it and people are sharing and they’re opening up and it’s great. Right then you meet up in a circle you say let’s brag for the other person. What did you hear someone else celebrate? “Oh, Sally here. She had a baby last week”, everybody claps and for the most part, we never get to that. Because it’s like the door open. You’re doing your job. You got this you got that? All right, you got the checklist and what would you do tomorrow and it’s gonna pause sometimes go for a walk. Get to the thought the feelings the emotions, get to know the person.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: And you bridge there a little bit from the one on one conversation, which is kind of easy to imagine like, Okay, we’re going to go for a walk. We’re going to have this conversation. We’re going to talk together, but talk about how you would use this with a group. Let’s say there’s a doctor out there and we just had a podcast episode recently on staff retreats and different things like that. I was talking to a doc from Alaska who does a five-day staff retreat. So talking about putting something together using this for a big group is a one-on-one conversations that then they share with the group like what you just said, are there ways to facilitate a whole group of people growing together?

Bart Foster: Well, you experienced it in Central Park. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah

Bart Foster: We did a connection hike. Right. What do you think? How was that experience for you?

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I think, for me, the value was in the individual connections that especially with people that I would not have ever spoken to otherwise. So it was in each of the segments meet with one person and that one-person conversation was definitely different and like I said, was somebody I wouldn’t have met talking about things that we wouldn’t have talked about and for the few that I connected with and stayed in touch with after it’s funny right for somebody you just met at Vision Expo that you’d never seen before to say, you know, to send a message on LinkedIn because they found you and wanted to share something about a potential hobby or like, you know, so that that piece of it was cool, but there was probably 90% of the group that I didn’t speak to at all. You definitely felt the connection. So like you said, you know, this one just became a grandparent and everybody clapped and that was fun to be part of, but I’m thinking about, you know, an office staff of 15-20 people like how do you, can you do it with everybody in the same conversation?

Bart Foster: Starts with setting an intention in a framework and establishing trust. You can’t have vulnerability if you don’t have trust, because people want to feel safe. And that takes some time. And what I found is if you’re vulnerable yourself, it gives people the permission to do the same and you start to build trust. Once you have the container of trust built, then you can focus on, okay, what’s our shared language going to be? What’s our norms? Like maybe we’re not going to give advice to each other, maybe we’re going to share experiences. Bethany when you shared that about your daughter, we know what came up for me and those are shared experiences. But setting an intention is super important. And I always started retreats, and I’ll draw that bell curve. And I’ll talk to him about let’s get outside of the 70% just a little bit. And you set that container you build that safety and the trust and things just flow. So I often will do two and a half day retreat. That’s our core product. And when dealing with teams we deal with boards will deal with groups of doctors. And we use nature’s a backdrop we bring people to Boulder it’s a two and a half day stay for two nights and by the time people leave, it’s like I had somebody two weeks ago and she came with me. She’s like I’ve known his team for 20 years. She’s like I had no idea and she started naming these things that she learned that week. And she’s like, how did you do it? And I just looked at her and I said, nature’s our silent partner we walk we do these things. All I did was provide some prompts. You did all the work. A lot of people think you know they they organize these conferences and they have these big names speakers and they come up on stage and they tell you all this stuff and they hand out a book and to me the wisdoms in the room. It’s a person on your left and the person on your right. They have the real stories. And if we take the time to learn and really listen, rig really listen. That’s when we can develop better relationships, and that leads to higher performing teams.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Awesome. If somebody wants more information about your retreat, somebody thinks I would love to do this with my team or with a group. Where do they go to find you?

Bart Foster: BusinessOutside.com is the best spot. They can also pick up a lot of what’s in my book, the Business Outside: Discover Your Path Forward. It’s like a modern trail guide to living a more intentional life. It talks about building these authentic connections it talks about, you know, developing your personal value statement, which I know is it’s interesting to you. But yeah, they can find that as well. And that’s on Amazon and audible. I can read it to them.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Really, You’re on Audible? You did the recording?

Bart Foster: I did. Yeah, we’ve read it. I’ve read it on Audible so you can pick it up there as well. But yeah, we will bring teams to Boulder we’re also doing around the country. And there’s something special and if we can develop more authentic connections, and it’s usually a mix of personal and professional development, that at the end people feel may leave engaged and inspired and committed to delivering on the strategic priorities of their business.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I can’t imagine a better result for a team than that. So thank you for this conversation for being here for being real for sharing a little bit of yourself. We’ll put a link to your book in the show notes and I really appreciate your time today. 

Bart Foster: No problem. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: And for more information on how to reach your goals in your private practice and having someone that you really can create that connection with who is knowledgeable, experienced looking out for your individual, best interest and the best interest of your practice. You can find us online at powerpractice.com

Read the Transcription

Bart Foster: We don’t connect with our staff in that way we just go through the motions, and we make up stories in our head.” I wonder why Sally is such a bitch today?” Well, her cat died like we didn’t even know because we didn’t take the time to ask.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Hi, I am Bethany Fishbein, CEO of The Power Practice and Host of the Power Hour Optometry Podcast, and I’m sitting in New Jersey where it’s 60 something degrees and sunny today, beautiful day to be outside so it seems timely that I’m sitting inside but talking with Bart Foster, who is the Founder of a company called BusinessOutside. He’s the Managing Director of Sanitas Advisors and the author of a book called Business Outside: Discover Your Path Forward, published last year and that’s what we’re talking about today. So Bart, thank you so much for giving me the time and being here to do this.

Bart Foster: Absolutely. Look forward to talking.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Awesome. And I will just throw in for a personal note for my daughter Tali who may be listening and she’s heard some of my stories from summer camp in the 80s and you are not the bark from the stories that’s a completely different part. Just so she knows. So

Bart Foster: wow, we’re gonna have to get into that a little later. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: We might have to or not

Bart Foster: Whoa, okay, guys.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So I mean, talk about the concept of BusinessOutside because it’s, it’s a little bit of an unconventional way of approaching meetings and humans, like, just talk about the concept in general.

Bart Foster: Yeah, and I think when people first hear business outside, oh, that’s in nature, we’re going for a hike and things and there may be a piece of that. BusinessOutside is about outside of corporate norms, outside of our comfort zone, doing things differently. And we find that nature obviously is a backdrop and it’s, we call it our silent partner. But it’s not just outside of nature. It’s doing things different. And there’s enormous examples of that. But I was, you know, I was in Novartis, I was in the eye care division for a number of years, and I had a startup and I ran my own company and I would go to these meetings and you’re stuck in a ballroom in a hotel conference room and your might be in this amazing destination, but you never get outside and you’re going through the standard motions. So we’re trying to help people realize there’s a different way that we can interact. There’s a different way we can do business, and it’s about the human connections. So I’m sure we can dive into some of that.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah. So when people go to a conference or they have a meeting, I mean, you’re right, the norm is you go and it might be somewhere cool or not. But sometimes, you see the inside of a hotel or the inside of a conference room or meeting center. So what’s the difference in how people are or relate to each other in that setting versus what you think it could be or should be?

Bart Foster: Yeah, so for me like networking is a dirty word. And the reason is because most people do it wrong. And it’s all about superficial conversations, and “We should catch up some time”, and “That those are cool shoes” and you know, “How are your kids?”.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I’m with you like so 1000 percent here just even you know.

Bart Foster: No one cares

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: one thought of it.

Bart Foster: What do you do when we should you know, “Let’s catch up some time”. It’s like, “We’re right here. What do you mean like, well, let’s catch up right now?” But it’s because most people don’t realize there’s a different way to kind of get to know each other. It’s not about networking. For me, it’s about building relationships, in real connections and authenticity. So what we find is, in one of the signature things, you know, I created an innovation summit for the eye care industry. Five years ago, we mixed CEOs of the industry with eight startups. And the first year I did it I had this optional hike on the agenda. And I would say about half the attendees showed up for the hike. It was like 12 people. Well, the whole three days that became the number one thing everyone loved it so the next year, we didn’t make it optional. It was a requirement. We call it the connection hike. And what we learned is there’s something special that happens when you’re walking shoulder to shoulder with somebody you’re not making direct eye contact, and clothing doesn’t matter. And you’re just you’re walking in, you’re moving and you’re in fresh air and you’re not making that eye contact. And for me, I realized that I’m more vulnerable and more authentic. So we extend that into teams. But that’s some of the magic is being able to develop deeper relationships in real connection in a way that people haven’t done before.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So maybe this is like a dumb question, but is that what it’s supposed to be? Like in the role I’m in it for a year and a half and still new to this whole networking, schmoozing world, and like when people meet at something work-related, a lot of times like the conversation feels like they are just looking for something from each other. Right? You meet somebody at Vision Expo. They want to sell you something or a rep comes into the office. They want you to grow your account or your market share. Like are you really

Bart Foster: Transactional

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: supposed to get to know people? Talk more about, what the kind of relationships you’re talking about can create?

Bart Foster: So I don’t believe there’s a personal you and a business you know, it’s just you and to be the most the happiest, the healthiest, the most productive life. For me, I found that I have to be authentic and I have to be real. And to me some of the most powerful relationships that I have are when you know you have that trust and vulnerability and you can share with each other and you break down the walls and you get to the real feelings and the emotions that people have. And it’s not transactional people like to buy if you think about from a sales perspective people want to buy from people they like. How do you know if you’d like the person or not? If they’re just coming in and they’re selling stuff? No one No one wants that. So it’s not a dumb question. It’s something that I think a lot of people wrestle with, and we were never taught that growing up.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah, I mean, it feels like sometimes you’re almost taught the opposite. You know, you hear in sales always be closing and let’s think about who we’re going to meet and what they might be able to do for us or, or something. So your thought is to get out of that and just get to meet humans, people because they’re interesting, and we’re energized by real connection.

Bart Foster: I’ll give you a framework to think about. So think about a bell curve, right? If you draw a bell curve, for those people listening, you can just think about, think about your bell curve, the biggest part of the bell curve, the middle, that’s 70%. That’s 70% of the conversations that we have in life. “How’s the weather? How’s your job? Oh, that’s a cool car! What do you think’s gonna win the Super Bowl?” it’s all superficial is right in the middle. The 10% on each side of the bell curve, positive and negative. That’s where you get a little bit deeper. You get to the feeling, get to the emotion maybe. And then the 5%, the tail the very end the tail, the bell curve. That’s where people rarely go. Could be some secrets, you know, deep dark stuff. Maybe you share with your spouse, maybe a really close friend, but that’s it. Right? I’ll give you a really quick example. So imagine 70% Right, I’m Bart. I have two kids 17 and 19. That is pretty good. I do consulting at speaking executive coaching. I have a business called BusinessOutside. Recently wrote a book, random on this podcast, used to spend a lot of time in eye care. I have a really flexible schedule. I can be home when my kids are home. My son comes home from high school, everyday drops his bag, I’m out of your dad and he goes and hangs out with his friends. And I feel like I’m an empty nester. And it makes me sad. And sometimes I feel alone in my own house. If I went to the 5%, you’d know that I had a business that I founded. We put health kiosks in fact, it started with a vision screening kiosk and we scaled that business to 5000 locations. And I learned a really valuable lesson along the way when you when you raise 50 million in capital, it’s not your company anymore, and the chairman forced me out of a company I founded. When that happened, I was embarrassed and angry and lost my personal identity like without the CEO title who was I? You see the difference? 70, 10, 5? 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah, sure. 

Bart Foster: And I can use that example. It takes just a second. It takes two minutes, but people get it. And what I try to help people realize and the people listening I think if we can just get outside of the 70% just a little bit. You don’t have to go to the 10% You don’t have to go to 5%, just get out of the 70% just a little bit. So instead of a cocktail reception. This is this is like real, you know, you can use this. Go to trade show you meet somebody have it. You don’t know what typically comes up. “Oh, what do you do?” That’s the worst question because it puts people on the defensive and then they have to like posture and figure out what they can tell you so it sounds impressive. How about starting with a different question? Maybe like, “What’s bringing you energy right now? What brings you joy? What are you most excited about in the next quarter?” Let’s get to a real question because then you can have connection. I have a buddy Chris Tuff. And he wrote a book called Save your Asks, and he how he talks about the race to the middle. How do you find common interactions? The Race to the middle is, How do you get to an emotional connection with another person? And it could be something in their background, something you related to something that you can relate to. So a lot of what we talk about is establishing you know better connections. With people and eye doctors can do this every day, not only with their patients but with their staff.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So did you get to this because this was something that you felt was missing in your life? Like, Did you get to this by doing it wrong and thinking there’s got to be a better way? Or

Bart Foster: For sure

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Or were you always like this and you watch people and you knew your way was better? Like, talk about your own path into making this a priority in your own interactions.

Bart Foster: Yeah, so I joined a group called YPO Young Presidents Organization. This is back 12 years ago, I was living in Atlanta, and they kind of built it as, Hey, this is your own personal board of directors. And it’s other CEOs similar to you different industries. You’re going to get together once a month and share family personal business, you’ll go really deep I didn’t know what that meant. And the first interaction I had with them was a retreat and had a facilitator who drew that bell curve. And he gave the example similar to what I just gave. And he started tearing up and I was like, holy cow, like this guy, I don’t even know. But all of a sudden, I felt the ability to be a little bit more vulnerable myself, which is what happens when someone else is vulnerable. It gives you permission to do the same. And then I opened up a little bit and all of a sudden guy next to me and he said, Oh yeah, that happened to me. And you had that grown up to and all of a sudden you have these shared experiences and we weren’t giving advice we were sharing experiences that we all have. And what I realized that wait a minute, if I can go deep and have these connections in these conversations, I didn’t even have this with my own family. And it put me on a whole different path. And I realized that the more vulnerable I was, the more authentic I was it gave people permission to say, and my relationships get stronger. The discussions were richer. And it was just, it was so like refreshing. So now I mean, that’s just my default. And people know like, we go for a hike, they meet at my house or hike up the hill and by you know, before we even get 10 minutes in, I’ll share something, you know, it’s usually Hey, I got forced out of my company or I feel like I’m an empty nester and whatever it is, and all of a sudden, you start developing the this relationship.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: And I don’t want it to sound wrong what I’m asking the sentence in my head is like and then what are their relation? Like what is forming that relationship do but that’s not that’s not exactly what I mean. It’s not like oh, okay, so this is another way to get what you want. Like what did these relationships do for you? That’s that’s not what I’m asking. It’s how does having those kinds of relationships with people that ordinarily you’re not close to, right, so you’re talking about the, the YPO group I mean, the first time you went and those are business colleagues and strangers, you’re talking about as optometrist be able to have that with a patient. What changes in life as a result of having that?

Bart Foster: A lot. It brings me joy to know that I’m building an authentic relationship with someone else. There’s a great book I read, it was 22 years old. My dad gave it to me and I’ve read it. I’ve probably given it to 200 people. It’s called “Dig Your Well Before You’re Thirsty” and it’s by Harvey Mackay. Dig Your Well Before You’re Thirsty, it’s about building relationships way before you ever need them. If ever. One of the examples he gives in the book is he talks about how many people could you call 2 in the morning and ask for $50,000 I think at the time when he wrote he was like 20 grand, whatever, it doesn’t matter, whatever the number is. For most people, it’s like four or five people for Harvey was like 50 And I remember thinking I wonder how he does that. Well, that’s what a lot of the books about you have to build these relationships, stay in touch with people, send them a birthday card, tell them how you feel. You’re in their city, you call and you call up. And all of a sudden, I started doing that when I was 22. And I started building relationships way before I ever need them. So a patient comes in you start building relationships, who knows? 10 years from now that person might be the president of something that has tickets to the and they’re like, “Hey, do you want to go do you want to take your daughter to you know that play?” Because you started developing these relationships on. It’s hard to answer what was it? You know, what’s it gonna bring you. but I think that’s the fallacy. I think people that are transactional, that are into the networking, and you see them all the time, right? They have a stack of business cards, they walk into the room, they’re talking to you two minutes into the conversation. They’re looking over your head. They’re trying to figure out who they’re gonna talk to you next, and they’re just collecting business cards. They’re trying to figure out who would I have to meet? That’s transactional. That’ll work short term doesn’t work long term. And from a patient. I mean, you know, you’ve been to doctors, dentists, different things. The ones you have a relationship with a personal relationship. They tell you a little bit about their kids. They talked about the weekend, what’s going to happen. There’s feelings there’s emotions being shared. It’s not transactional. There’s the ones that stay for a long time. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Talk about how to bring that into, into your office as as an optometrist, so you talked about relationship with patients just starting with a different question. Right? And that feels easy enough, right? Instead of, “Oh, it’s so nice out today”. Or whatever, you know, just starting with something that’s like, a little bit of a deeper ask or being willing to share something about yourself. Talk about it with your team. What do you think?

Bart Foster: Yeah, give me one. So, typical practices, and you correct me if I’m wrong, you’ve been in hundreds. If they open the doors at nine, right, people show up at 830 and they’re getting their stuff ready and they’re, they’re cleaning off the counter and making sure everything’s set. And then two minutes before they open the door. And the day starts, right? That’s usually how it works. What if 10 minutes before you open the door, you got in a circle, and you just breathe for a minute. Really deep breath in. Deep breath out. Right? Really deep breath in, right? You just think about how do you want to show up for the day? And then you do quick check-in with each person. 30 seconds. How are you feeling? checking in today? How are you feeling coming into work? mentally, emotionally, physically? How are you feeling mentally, emotionally physically? Is there anything holding you back from being completely present and just being all in for today? Before we get open the doors? Somebody might say, you know, I? I feel that energy just had a couple of cups of coffee. Really proud because my daughter was in this play last night so super excited. Afterwards, had a couple glasses of wine so I’m a little bit foggy this morning. Otherwise, I’m here. I’m ready to go. Somebody else goes. I’m here. I’m focused. I gotta tell you, my cat passed away last night. I’ve had her for 20 years. And she started crying a little bit. It makes me a little sad. Otherwise, I’m here, right? The whole thing takes six or eight minutes but we don’t connect with our staff in that way. We just go through the motions, and we make up stories in our head. I wonder why Sally is such a bitch today, well, her cat died like we didn’t even know because we didn’t take the time to ask. People all want the same thing they want to be seen. They want to know that they’re adding value to each other. Right? They want happiness. So that’s one that’s one idea. Another is when you’re going to do one on one conversations, go outside, go for a walk. You could be in the middle of a strip mall, in the Midwest in the middle of winter. Put on your coat, you go for a walk, and you just talk you talk about real stuff. You just take a mental break, but it’s proven you get outside people are more productive, they’re happier, they’re healthier, and just it just takes a little bit of a reset sometimes.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I think there’s value you said it before about being shoulder to shoulder and facing the same way. It’s like my kids are the same age as yours. And you know those parenting conversations that are so much easier when you’re in the car than if you’re trying to sit face to face looking at each other. There’s just something about like connection without eye contact that lets you talk a little bit more freely let’s you receive a little bit differently. You said it’s proven there’s like what’s the there’s like studies or just everybody knows it? I feel like all the parents I know know that.

Bart Foster: Know their studies. You can you can Google it. It’s like side by side walking more. vulnerability, authenticity, like it’s been proven.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: So when you’re having that, like you go for that walk with a staff member and having that real conversation. Is there a risk to that? Like finding out too much or sharing too much because I I feel like I get that question sometimes of what if somebody tells me something’s going on in their life and that’s why they’re such a bitch today and we don’t have to edit that out. And now I know so can I not tell them that they need to adjust that attitude or can I not get what I need as a boss because I know their cat died? You know, what am I asking?

Bart Foster: I do. Yeah, I think you’re asking is there a risk that if you share too much it can be used against you in a negative way.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Even I mean even used against you in a negative way by yourself. So once the patient start coming in, you got to take care of patients. And so having that it’s like a safety if you don’t know anything going on, you can say, “Listen, I need you to get your head in the game. I need you to have a smile. I need you to be kind I need you to be more patient”, right? If you know and you’re involved in caring about somebody’s personal life. I’m playing devil’s advocate to your question here because I’m, I’m all in it. Like I go too far in your direction here. But when you know all that do you then feel like “Oh, okay, I just have to let mistakes go today because I know that they’ve got this personal thing going on, or yeah, this is really an issue how that patient was handled, but I can’t say anything because they’re already so stressed. I don’t want to add to something on top of it.”

Bart Foster: I think you’re answering your own question. I think there’s a way that you can deliver that message knowing the knowledge that you know, the woman’s cat dies, right, and she’s clearly distraught because she told you about it. Right. Well, you acknowledge it. You say that, “Hey, I hear you.” You might even have a shared experience. “I had an experience similar to this five years ago. And here’s what happened to me, right? So you’re acknowledging you’re showing empathy. It’s really important that we show up for our customers today and I know you’ll do your best”. So you’re getting across the same message where if you come in with the hardy in you didn’t know and you’re like, “Hey, I don’t know what’s wrong with you, but you got to get on it.” Like that doesn’t do any good. And it might do good in the short term, but all of a sudden, Sally goes home, she’s crying. She’s like, my boss is a jerk, doesn’t understand. And all of a sudden four or five of those things happen. That’s why people leave. People leave because they don’t like their boss, or they don’t have friends at work. In fact, if you have a friend at work, you’re 35% more likely to stay.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I’ve seen that on teams. I’ve been in offices, where we’re called into consulting and the general staff feels that they so strongly dislike the practice owner, they hate their boss, but they just have such a connection as to their co-workers, that they’ll stay years in a position because they don’t want to let down their team and said such an interesting thing to observe. Like, you don’t like your job, you don’t like what you’re doing. And you’re right, they’ll stay because they’re friends. So talks about the power of nature here because there is a difference in those conversations and it’s it makes an impact even to want to have them I was I was talking to someone who you had mentored for a little bit and he was telling me that when he met you initially, you said “Yeah, I’m happy to talk here. Come on out to if you’re in Colorado, we’ll go hiking.”

Bart Foster: Yeah, I do those hiking meetings quite often. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Okay. 

Bart Foster: So your questions like, What is nature do and how does it work or? 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah, so like when you do that hiking meeting? I mean, for me, one of the things that that has value is it just blocks your attention from everything else. It kind of eliminates distractions, because when you’re meeting in the office, it’s, you know, those Oh, excuse me, just one second. I’m so sorry. I know you’re meeting but can I? So it just gets away from all that. What else?

Bart Foster: I mean, if you think about it, right, humans have been on an earth almost 2 million years. Yet for 1,999,700 years. We’ve been outside. It’s only since the industrial revolution really, that we’ve added offices and cubes, everything our bodies were meant for that. were meant to be in clothes. It’s like we’re caged animals. So it’s natural that our bodies feel this and we get outside and you feel the endorphins and you feel and you’re moving and you feel the sun on your face and the cold wind, it’s more natural. And then walking and shoulder to shoulder and you’re not making direct eye contact. Yeah, there’s a reason why they tell you to have conversation. Your kids in the car. It’s proven, right? You’re more authentic and vulnerable when you have those interactions. So nature. I say it’s like our silent partner. Because a lot of times we would do these events will take people called the connection hike. And I’ll give him a prompt and I’ll say “Hey, get with somebody you haven’t met. And you know what I love to start with is think about something you celebrated you’re proud of. In the last six months, something you celebrate your product now follow me”. We share it and people are sharing and they’re opening up and it’s great. Right then you meet up in a circle you say let’s brag for the other person. What did you hear someone else celebrate? “Oh, Sally here. She had a baby last week”, everybody claps and for the most part, we never get to that. Because it’s like the door open. You’re doing your job. You got this you got that? All right, you got the checklist and what would you do tomorrow and it’s gonna pause sometimes go for a walk. Get to the thought the feelings the emotions, get to know the person.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: And you bridge there a little bit from the one on one conversation, which is kind of easy to imagine like, Okay, we’re going to go for a walk. We’re going to have this conversation. We’re going to talk together, but talk about how you would use this with a group. Let’s say there’s a doctor out there and we just had a podcast episode recently on staff retreats and different things like that. I was talking to a doc from Alaska who does a five-day staff retreat. So talking about putting something together using this for a big group is a one-on-one conversations that then they share with the group like what you just said, are there ways to facilitate a whole group of people growing together?

Bart Foster: Well, you experienced it in Central Park. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Yeah

Bart Foster: We did a connection hike. Right. What do you think? How was that experience for you?

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I think, for me, the value was in the individual connections that especially with people that I would not have ever spoken to otherwise. So it was in each of the segments meet with one person and that one-person conversation was definitely different and like I said, was somebody I wouldn’t have met talking about things that we wouldn’t have talked about and for the few that I connected with and stayed in touch with after it’s funny right for somebody you just met at Vision Expo that you’d never seen before to say, you know, to send a message on LinkedIn because they found you and wanted to share something about a potential hobby or like, you know, so that that piece of it was cool, but there was probably 90% of the group that I didn’t speak to at all. You definitely felt the connection. So like you said, you know, this one just became a grandparent and everybody clapped and that was fun to be part of, but I’m thinking about, you know, an office staff of 15-20 people like how do you, can you do it with everybody in the same conversation?

Bart Foster: Starts with setting an intention in a framework and establishing trust. You can’t have vulnerability if you don’t have trust, because people want to feel safe. And that takes some time. And what I found is if you’re vulnerable yourself, it gives people the permission to do the same and you start to build trust. Once you have the container of trust built, then you can focus on, okay, what’s our shared language going to be? What’s our norms? Like maybe we’re not going to give advice to each other, maybe we’re going to share experiences. Bethany when you shared that about your daughter, we know what came up for me and those are shared experiences. But setting an intention is super important. And I always started retreats, and I’ll draw that bell curve. And I’ll talk to him about let’s get outside of the 70% just a little bit. And you set that container you build that safety and the trust and things just flow. So I often will do two and a half day retreat. That’s our core product. And when dealing with teams we deal with boards will deal with groups of doctors. And we use nature’s a backdrop we bring people to Boulder it’s a two and a half day stay for two nights and by the time people leave, it’s like I had somebody two weeks ago and she came with me. She’s like I’ve known his team for 20 years. She’s like I had no idea and she started naming these things that she learned that week. And she’s like, how did you do it? And I just looked at her and I said, nature’s our silent partner we walk we do these things. All I did was provide some prompts. You did all the work. A lot of people think you know they they organize these conferences and they have these big names speakers and they come up on stage and they tell you all this stuff and they hand out a book and to me the wisdoms in the room. It’s a person on your left and the person on your right. They have the real stories. And if we take the time to learn and really listen, rig really listen. That’s when we can develop better relationships, and that leads to higher performing teams.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Awesome. If somebody wants more information about your retreat, somebody thinks I would love to do this with my team or with a group. Where do they go to find you?

Bart Foster: BusinessOutside.com is the best spot. They can also pick up a lot of what’s in my book, the Business Outside: Discover Your Path Forward. It’s like a modern trail guide to living a more intentional life. It talks about building these authentic connections it talks about, you know, developing your personal value statement, which I know is it’s interesting to you. But yeah, they can find that as well. And that’s on Amazon and audible. I can read it to them.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: Really, You’re on Audible? You did the recording?

Bart Foster: I did. Yeah, we’ve read it. I’ve read it on Audible so you can pick it up there as well. But yeah, we will bring teams to Boulder we’re also doing around the country. And there’s something special and if we can develop more authentic connections, and it’s usually a mix of personal and professional development, that at the end people feel may leave engaged and inspired and committed to delivering on the strategic priorities of their business.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: I can’t imagine a better result for a team than that. So thank you for this conversation for being here for being real for sharing a little bit of yourself. We’ll put a link to your book in the show notes and I really appreciate your time today. 

Bart Foster: No problem. 

Dr.Bethany Fishbein: And for more information on how to reach your goals in your private practice and having someone that you really can create that connection with who is knowledgeable, experienced looking out for your individual, best interest and the best interest of your practice. You can find us online at powerpractice.com

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