Save the Planet and Help Your Practice

Dr. Brian Spittle

You can be a capitalist and love your environment at the same time, right? so you can feel good about being a capitalist which is really backwards and selfish but it’s kind of snarky and fulfilling and I love that irony.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Hi, I am Bethany Fishbein, CEO of The Power Practice and Host of the Power Hour Optometry Podcast. At Power Practice we think outside the box and love to talk to other people who think outside the box, or maybe within the cardboard box, or at least put the cardboard box in the recycling bin. So I am excited to talk “Sustainability” today with my guest Dr. Brian Spittle. Brian is an owner with his wife Norma together their owner’s of the Eye Place in Midlothian, Virginia. And I mean a lot of different communities online that Brian is part of. And I always admire his comments and his commitment to not only doing right for his patients and his staff and his practice. But doing right for the environment. And so, I am really happy, Brian, that you agreed to do this somewhat begrudgingly and interested to learn from you and hear what you have to say. So thank you so much for doing this with me.

Dr. Brian Spittle

Bethany, thanks for having me begrudgingly I’m excited to be here. Right? I’m excited to talk about I think something that’s important.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Yeah, So I will tell you you’ve already inspired me. I was getting ready to record this and I went downstairs to grab some water and I – We just have a case of water and like plastic bottles in the garage and I went to grab one and I was like no I can’t. So already I am with a reusable water cup today. So you’ve already made a difference. Hopefully a bigger one. But is this something that was always important to you like when you were young or when did you decide that you care?

Dr. Brian Spittle

It’s not something that’s always been important to me or a focus of mine and I’m not a Blue Rock climate change person and my top 10 concerns of the day they are usually staffing and patient volume and revenue per patient and, climate sustainability is just not really. It’s not in that top 10 list but it’s way further up the list. Then it was or has been historically for me. So we practice in just outside of Richmond, Virginia. I’m from Richmond and my dad grew up on a farm and my extended family dad’s a forester, right so he cuts down trees for a living. And as a kid I helped grandma throw trash in the gully in the backyard. And occasionally they would push dirt over it and that’s they lived in their own land. So right. So that’s my childhood. It’s way bigger and broader than that, but that’s how I was raised. It just it wasn’t a consideration. And so it’s a pretty long journey to get to where we are now from basically almost 100% solar to power to the office to from that youth and that childhood.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Did something happen that kind of opened your eyes to things? Is there like an open your eyes story? Like a moment of reckoning.

Dr. Brian Spittle

So, there is that that moment and but we kind of wandered our way there? We we being Norma and I write I practice with my wife and we’re together every day at work, and pray for her, but it’s great. And so we, We built our practice building about 10 years ago and as a part of designing that building. We wanted it to be low maintenance right, I didn’t want disruptive headaches, right? So our floor in our offices concrete floor, just the concrete pad and we had it polished and it’s brown, and it’s shiny, and obviously, because it’s polished, but we didn’t want to have to rip the carpet out every eight years and have that disruption to our day and have to plan patient. And so we did things like that in the building designed to lower maintenance. So we have the same floor we wet mop it, no big deal. Not very sustainable, but low maintenance, right? And then we put in as part of that a tankless hot water tank and so it’s we have gas hot water so we never run out and it’s 98% efficient and so our you know, build for headquarters 20 bucks a month and no big deal. And so that was 10 years ago, we sort of just tried to be sustainable. And then in 2019, just before the pandemic the summer before the pandemic we were invited to see a contact lens manufacturing facility in Costa Rica. And so there were four or five ODS on that trip. And there were a bunch of industry people there were executives from the manufacturer and there some other folks sort of tangentially related to them and the industry. And the reason for the trip was this manufacturer had a sort of a sustainability background and none of us,As OD’s knew about it, and their employees were largely unaware of it. And their PR company that they hired into their marketing just thinks there’s more to – there should be more to that brand story for them. And so they just wanted us to sort of tour it and then have a sustainability conversation and I went into this conversation, thinking that with the attitude that yuppies are sustainable, it’s a culture that I don’t relate to, its politics. It’s maybe some hokey science and in the American way, it doesn’t impact me, right if I throw up I don’t know a bottle in the trash. Who cares? And – and one of the people on that trip was actually the former sustainability executive for Exxon Mobil. And I was just like, why do they even have this person? And so, as we’re having this conversation, why does the giant oil company have a sustainability division? And second, why is that guy not work there anymore? But it was, it just became this conversation of I’m from the country. And even though I was raised in a city, I’ll claim it. I don’t identify with this, and what do we do from there? So that’s sort of the beginning of the transformation, and at that point was still not planned. Right? So I’m in Costa Rica talking about sustainability, and I literally don’t, I just don’t give a damn.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein 6:15

You went because they gave you a trip to Costa Rica and something new and why not?

Dr. Brian Spittle

Costa Rica is amazing and beautiful and wonderful. And you know, I’ve been there on a mission trip for I care once upon a time, and so if someone’s gonna let me go back, and it’s just a fabulous culture and right? Costa Rica is just just neat. It’s just wonderful that 96% of Costa Ricans have a college education, and it’s beautiful and it’s ecological and all these things. And it turns out their electricity is, a lot of it comes from volcanic thermal energy that they’ve converted to electricity and that’s how these contact lenses are powered. And they recycle their water and right like, we got the whole spiel from the manufacturer. And during the course of that conversation, I realized that they were trying to figure out how to set themselves apart from other manufacturers, and in my head as a practitioner, and in the consumers head, as being a company that’s different, right? You buy a shoe you give a shoe away, those kinds of social marketing things that are powerful, or potentially powerful. And then my sister, also from Richmond, who happens to live in the desert of California, and she’s surrounded by solar panels. And she has windmills, you know, wind turbines near her. And she’s raising her kids vegan, and she’s doing a completely different culture than – than me but we grew up in the same home and the same culture. And then I realized thinking about this is that I’m in a city with 200 other Optometrists, and how do you pick your optometrist and we know that all doctors are the same, right? All of our Cardiologists who same or all of our knee surgeons with the same Orthopedist, and so, therefore, Optometrists are the same until we either screw up, right? at that point where the bad one or our friend recommends us and they happen to take you to know, VSP and EyeMed, so if I’m going to be different, and stand out from my peers, maybe this is a marketing thing. Okay? As a capitalist as a guy who runs a business, if it doesn’t cost me anything, and it might pay me back, I’ll listen, Right? And so we started to evolve in through this conversation, gonna, you know, weekend trip. So a little bit more chitchat, a little bit more conversation, and then I heard on the plane ride back that there was a tax credit for solar energy that was expiring at 30% credit. So whatever we spent on solar, we might get 30% back on our taxes. All right, great! So if the government doesn’t keep my money, and I can use that to help pay for something, maybe there’s some math behind this that will work. And I can be a capitalist and advertise in a way that might make people feel warm and fuzzy. And then

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

I love the way that you’ve just come to this right that it’s like the building stuff is because it’s going to be easier on you and then, a cool trip to somewhere you want to go and then an idea for marketing and then a discount. So

Dr. Brian Spittle

It’s all about me, right? It’s actually really bout me.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

So far and I’m kind of like on the edge of my seat like I know you and then I’m like, Wait, does he care like oh, wait for the end of this story, but that’s kind of where my head is at the moment.

Dr. Brian Spittle

And there’s a business and what do I really care about, right? and as a neighbor and as somebody lives in my community and is hopefully a good citizen, what’s really important, and I think it’s all it’s one of those yes and things, but it wasn’t immediately obvious to me because of really my culture, right? We’re victims are our parents and our genetics and our culture that we that we live in, right? We talk about Myopia, and it’s because of these iPads. We had kids or because we’re not outside enough. And so really, we are products of our culture, and how do we get around that? How do we get outside of that, and rise above and so at the end of the day, we pre-pandemic said, Alright, let’s get a spreadsheet out? Let’s do some math. And let’s see if this maybe this solar thing is a way to go right we just, we just kind of picked solar and at the same time we also came back and we were already doing the recycle the contact lens blister packs, one of the manufacturers does that. And so we kind of had dipped their toe into that a little bit of had been sitting around. So I really just said you know, I think this is actually a good marketing thing. And we’ve talked over the years about what can get patients in our door like should we give away little like eyeglass cleaners and have them refill it for free every once in a while and we say bang on our door and they take two minutes of our time. Maybe they’ll spin something or maybe they walk in and create frenzy. And so we came back. One of my associate OD has one of those Cricut those vinyl cutting machines. And so we got we went to Walmart and bought two trash cans. Below you know, step on one, and the lid pops up. And so we put a little bit out front we already had a recycle bin for Lions Club to recycle used eyeglasses and so we got one and we put a little recycle sign for – for contact lens blister packs, and then Costa we happen to carry Costa frames and so they have some recycled frames made from like fishing nets or something and so bio-resin and so they had a banner and stuck that banner next to costa display. So we just did little touchpoints throughout the office just to see if we could get some traction around it. And there’ll be while I over-research everything,right? I have a spreadsheet about light bulbs. And I want all the colors and the Kelvins to match in my displays and in my rooms right. And so the same thing. I applied it to solar panels to research all the solar panels and you know, there’s six square feet, we have a roof over our head. What do we do with it and so the math is that or the math was solar doesn’t really pay for itself anytime soon. So completely let down. And then I sort of factor that in a tax credit and we hadn’t bought any equipment yet that year and so we had some a little bit of cash, and so fall of 2019. We signed a contract to put some solar on our roof. And because the tax credit was going to go down at the end of 2019 the solar company is way backed up. So they’re gonna come in like April of 2020 and do the install. Fine, no big deal and we ordered 253 solar panels, so we spent $160,000 on this, and the math was that we would save about 1500 or 2000 a month on our electric bill. And we would get 30% back up front and a tax credit at the end of 2019. So basically prepay, get the tax credits who didn’t have to pay as much so so we got like 50 grand back on a tax credit. And then we’re saving like 1500 a month, right? So it’ll pay for itself in eight or nine years. I’d rather that’d be like five or six, but for eight or nine years. We’ll see what happens. And we’re hoping, hopes maybe the wrong word that the cost of electricity would go up over that time. It would pay back faster. And then just yesterday, I was like what is that at our front door. So Monday morning, I’m totally skipping way ahead and I’ll go back. But yesterday morning I drove up to the office, and there’s this like Ziploc bag at our front door, and in it. It’s full of blister packs from contact lenses that somebody had thrown in our front door over the weekend. And yesterday was my reinforcement. This sustainability actually can be sort of a practice driving, marketing, grow your business thing and so you can be a capitalist and love your environment at the same time. Right? So you can feel good about being a capitalist, which is really backwards and selfish, but it’s kind of snarky and fulfilling. And I love that irony.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Awesome! We start the episodes here with a quote from the speaker and so I think it’s going to be hard to pass up. You can be a capitalist and love your environment at the same time. I think that’s gotta be.

Dr. Brian Spittle

That’s true, right? And it’s a meandering path to get to that point.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

I mean, it’s not a bad thing. Like, the point is there’s a million ways that you can be a capitalist and a million ways you can benefit your practice and can mark it and when you can find one of those that doesgood for someone or something else. That’s a win! The fact that it does something for you doesn’t take away anything from the greater good that it’s doing. My sense from your updates periodically about how much energy or how much electricity you didn’t use that month, is that there’s some warm fuzzies in there too.

Dr. Brian Spittle

And we’ve learned some things as we’ve gone through the process. So we have you can see our solar panels, some of them when you drive up to the building, and yet no one sees them. They don’t even know they’re there. And so unless you bang your own drum, you won’t get out of it. From a marketing standpoint what you expect it to, right? So that’s one thing. So we’ve had to find ways to sort of create touch points or just tell people that sustainability is a thing for us. But we also have to be sensitive to our patients who couldn’t care less about sustainability and in fact are turned off by that. Right? So we have political left and political right here. And some individuals think that this is a political issue, and not a real world thing. And that’s okay, we can love them too. And so we’ve had to sort of read the room and how we have some of these conversations with people, right I don’t want one day contact lenses because they seem really wasteful, okay? Let’s talk about ways in which that’s really not that important. So that you can still have the benefits of that lens. And you can bring us those little single use wrappers who I just throw them in the recycle bin at home. Well, that’s great, except they still end up in a landfill because they fall through the recycling machine at the county processing place. And they scoop them up, put them in the dump and build a county to do that. Right. Let’s do that in a way in which we can get them to TerraCycle just throw them in our window on the way on the way by over the weekend sometime. We don’t care when we open the door. We’ll see it and we send off giant crates of contact lens blister packs, and it’s just it takes a little bit of time and it’s a little bit annoying to do that at the same time. Like my employees feel better about where they work. Okay, and this labor market being sticky as an employer is the impossible task. And if they like where they work, and as a particular generation where belonging is important and believing in it is important. Some of them are behind the sustainability thing and it’s important to, and then that has blossomed into recycling for our employees. So there’s a recycle bin next to trash can on the break room, and there’s recycle bin in the janitor’s closet as well as recycle bin in our lab because everything comes in a plastic bag. You know, over frames come in plastic bags, they’re in a plastic bag, and then one of the temples is covered in a plastic bag. And then the lens from the lab comes up plastic bag or paper wrapper and all of those things can certainly be thrown away takes no time takes no effort. Or we can have bins up people see. And so in our exam room, it’s a little recycled cup and you’re like where do I put my contact lens then? I’m like you can throw it away or we can recycle it. Oh, you do that? Yeah, we do that. And so there’s touchpoints all the way through our office to encourage and to bring up recycling, even in the bathroom.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

I got to the bathroom in a minute. That’s a book there but for the solar going back to the solar you said you really can’t see him unless you’re looking. And so carefully. You want to make some patients at least aware that you’re doing it. How have you let people know that you’re powering your office with these solar panels?

Dr. Brian Spittle

So one was allowing the design some to the front of the building. And the UPS driver was the first person to say anything to us. When we installed them, right that person noticed. So some people notice and look up and are aware of their environment. And some of us like me are zombies and drive by it every day. And don’t know where that house came from. On the way home it just like oh that’s new. When the person that cars like no it’s been there for a year, right? So some of us are zombies and caught up in our whirlwind. We it’s a little bit of a fitness on our website. We’re still sort of finding our feet on the marketing side. But we’ve also integrated it into our letterhead. And so the bottom of every form, like we send letters to pediatricians, you know, with the exam notes, diabetic patients to primary care doctors, and so all of our paperwork down at the bottom is we have a little ilogo and we put some solar panels in front of it. So our logo now looks like the sun. And it says solar powered on the bottom of every one of our pieces of paper that come out of the office. And so some people have noticed that and from time to time we rotate some signage into our exam rooms that that sort of say, Did you know we’re solar-powered? So again, people who are interested in it will notice these things and pick up on these things and people aren’t interested. Okay, they’ll go about their day and that’s not the hook for them in our office. We’ll find some other ways to try to do that.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

How do you find the line or decide which side of the line you’re going to be on for stuff that there is a sustainable option, but it’s not necessarily the best or most convenient like throwing something in a recycle bin instead of the garbage can next to it. Okay, that’s easy, but there are times where paper forms versus reusable marker and erasing them and now you’re using alcohol pads and paper towels and everything. How do you find a line where you make a decision to do something unsustainably?

Dr. Brian Spittle

That’s going to be different for everybody, I think because ultimately your most prized asset is your time. It’s the one thing you can never earn back or get back or buyback and, and so for me time investment is the important thing. I don’t spend a lot of time in my eye exams talking about sustainability. I spend a lot of time talking about dry eye and getting new glasses and here listening to you know, what their kids are up to, you know. There’s the stereotypical things that we do as eye doctors counseling sessions, as I call those. And so we don’t put a ton of time into these things. And I am annoyed because some of my employees will drop that bottle of empty bottle of Coca Cola in the trash can in the break room when literally right next to it as a blue band that has empty Coca Cola bottles in it that they can recycle. And so we’re still as a culture internal in our office and external to our office finding our feet on that and I don’t want to create stigma, I don’t want to put people out I don’t want to make this a barrier when I’m trying to make this an opportunity and something that people can engage us on and maybe separates us a little bit from our friends across the street.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Do you have it where it still is kind of a seamless experience? This isn’t getting in the way and if it is doing anything, it’s enhancing at certain touchpoints.

Dr. Brian Spittle

Yes, exactly. Exactly!

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Does the sustainability of products make a difference in like frames you’re buying and stuff you’re recommending?

Dr. Brian Spittle

The frame companies, there’s a couple eco lines out there, right? They do exist. And I think the difficulty with frames is that there’s so personalized and to the person’s personality right to their face shape to their skin color to how they want to look their self image and most of the lines that are out there are just not produced in a or at least marketed in a way that’s indicative of being sustainable. They’re out there, but you kind of have to go out of your way to do it. And so do we want it, made in America may be the same kind of concept, right that they’re out there. Those lines do exist, but you still have to go hunt and peck to find them. So on the frame line, we haven’t spent much time and effort on that. We carry it if the manufacturer offers it and it’s a brand that sells through then good we can still be capitalist and still be sustainable on the spectacle inside of that. Again, I don’t think there’s anything out there I’m not aware of any bio-resin progressive lens that exists and maybe that’s an opportunity for someone listening to this conversation to point in that direction and go for it. Someone should be the first and.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

I can see that marketing “These glasses actually are coke bottles.”

Dr. Brian Spittle

That’s terrible and wonderful.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

It’s a tagline.

Dr. Brian Spittle

They are, and on the contact lens side, there’s right much there, right? There are at least three of the four big manufacturers who have sustainability elements in place. And you don’t hear a lot about it. It’s not something they lead with or put very forward. And if you’re going through the effort marketing, right that’s you’ve already done the hard part which is putting in water recycling in a facility somewhere or reusing your blister packs to make traffic cones or putting it in concrete aggregate streets like they do these things. I didn’t make any of that up and yet they don’t tell us those things. It would be nice to say see that contact lens on the wall behind me that lens produced sustainably and people we do that from time to time and they go for it. It’s okay, I’ll contact lenses must be the same. I’ll take the one that’s greener than the other.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

And I mean, just like you said about your patience, some care to different levels than others. And so for somebody who cares, they are likely to respond to that or at least would appreciate knowing it. And for someone who doesn’t care. I still think it’s healthy for them to know that someone else does, you know.

Dr. Brian Spittle

And if they are, in some sense if they are surrounded by people who sort of keep saying the same message right here and at the grocery store and at the pharmacy and where they get the oil change in their car. If all of us sort of made these little comments or had these little signs on maybe a little peer pressure would sink in overtime and don’t migrate a little bit toward something that’s maybe for a better future.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Yeah, even a little step in that direction. So let’s go back to the bathroom here. You’ve got these touchpoints throughout the office. What is going on in your bathroom? I’m envisioning recycled toilet paper, hope not.

Dr. Brian Spittle

Hope not, bathrooms are gross.

 Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Recycled maybe reusable not so much, I don’t know.

Dr. Brian Spittle

We don’t have greywater sprinklers and we don’t know we had

 Dr.Bethany Fishbein

like if it’s yellow, let it mellow side.

Dr. Brian Spittle

Correct. Correct. We don’t want to replant with it or less green landscaping. is probably from some sort of poisonous fertilizer we’ve put down to kill the environment. But so we again being a capitalist, we had paper towels in our restrooms in our exam rooms where we have a sink and every exam room and so we had paper towels in there and the case of paper towels is just under $30 now and they used to be $23. Right? So inflation’s made, these things go up, they cost more after the pandemic. And so we were burning through at least $100 a month and paper towels, right? We have eight exam lanes and four bathrooms and yada yada and so we did a lot of research and found Toto like the toilet company Toto Toilets makes a and dryer, electric hand dryer, and it cut our cut our paper towel bill down by like 50 bucks a month. And the power bill doesn’t go up because of it. But the hard part in the hand dryers was finding one that filters the nasty air in the bathroom and doesn’t blow it everywhere. And so Toto makes one that has a filter in it and it doesn’t get the wall like moldy and gross and right you have to think about maintenance and what kind of image you want to present in the bathroom. But they cut down dramatically on our end, there are little sustainability signs on each one of them, and says we put this in place not to be gross and obnoxious and loud, but to be better stewards of our environment. And people notice it.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Very cool. So what are the things that you want to implement but haven’t done yet? What’s next?

Dr. Brian Spittle

It wouldn’t be nice to change our IT infrastructure. So that right one of the biggest, so the heating and air is clearly the most power-sucking thing. And then lighting is next and then computers and printers for most people is the third most power-sucking thing. So we already have like a 30 SEER heating and air system right so we have a really really efficient heating and air system, variable refrigerant system. And then we changed all of our light bulbs to LED so we built the building with halogen. We changed them all to LED and our power bill went down $150 a month just from changing out light bulbs. 10 years ago. And now we’ve worked on replacing our server and some of our IT infrastructure into less power-hungry things. And as time goes by, you’re going to replace your computers and they become more and more power-efficient. So we as we’re replacing them and we’re getting smaller and smaller little computers that kind of fit on the back of the monitor. And so that’s one of the directions we’re going now. The other one is I would like to find a better sort of branding around sustainability and being green and just to raise awareness of trying to be that office right, to that we’re already doing so many of these things. However, people just don’t know because we just, we’re indifferent, right we’re in our whirlwind and so I want to find a better way to brand and market that to my customer. Some of that’s my patients Some of that’s the UPS guy. Some of that’s my employees, right the people interface with my business. How do I do better at, what we’re already working on it? Right, that continuous improvement thing?

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

And how far out are you now from hitting that breakeven point with your solar panels? They’ve been in two years?

Dr. Brian Spittle

Yeah, we’re right at two years. It’s interesting. We get a little power usage thing back from Dominion powers who are power companies. And so every month they tell us how much electricity we use. And we’ve watched that go down and down and down. And so in the last 12 months, we’ve had two months where we actually had a power bill, and some of that’s good and some of that’s bad. You actually from the capitalist side, don’t want to be 100% solar energy, because it doesn’t pay back as fast. You want to owe a little bit at the end of the month because then you weren’t wasting your solar. Whereas if you make more electricity than you use, at least in Virginia, you give it to the power company they don’t pay you for it. So you feed it back into the grid. And so they’re living off of me and so you don’t like that, but like

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

So in 2019 you tell the staff everybody leave all the lights on.

Dr. Brian Spittle

That’s right. And if they wanted a little hotter, a little colder in a building, that’s fine. You just mess with a thermostat, y’all it’s fine. And so yeah, so we had a $200 power bill a couple of months ago. Next month was like 30 bucks, and now we’re back to zero. So in the dead of winter, we had to heat the place. So just to keep the employees happy.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

That’s awesome, Brian. It’s an interesting story because it’s as much about how you got there. And who you are and how this fits into what you’re trying to do. Then creating something to fit into this. And I think that, that’s what makes it successful and kind of fun.

Dr. Brian Spittle

It’s not always easy, right? So I didn’t go into it but you know, we signed that contract and end of 2019 pandemic hits in February, and we have a contract to install on April. We literally shut down for the month of April and the month of May. Because of the pandemic zero patients. We never unlocked the door. All emergencies went to the awesome optometrists across the street. Shout out to Ginni Alsop for risking her life to see my emergency patients. I love her and the bills do when they start doing the install. So I have no revenue. I basically fired all of my employees and I have $150,000 Heart $60,000 bill that comes due and they won’t let me out of the contract. Because they want to work. They’re in the middle of pandemic and they need revenue too. And so it’s not always easy to do what you say you’re going to do. But on the other side of that, you know, we’d already had the financing in place and it would have been nice if they let us wait a few months until we had some cash flow. But thank goodness we had planned ahead and made a conscious decision to on the business side do it the right way. Otherwise, it could have flipped us upside down and been even worse than the tax credit would have allowed us to get back.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

I’m glad that it all worked out and it sounds fun and cool. And I can’t wait to see the updates of what you’ll done next. So,thank you so much for spending the time and hanging out and sharing your story. I love hearing it and hopefully somebody else is inspired to do something cool that benefits their practice or themselves while taking care of someone else in the process. Thank you!

Dr. Brian Spittle

Yeah, for listeners out there you know you can email or reach out to Bethany, I’m happy to connect with somebody with that information too.

Dr.Bethany Fishbein

Yeah you can reach us at info@powerpractice.com or on our website www.powerpractice.com

And we will put you in touch with Brian or his capitalist-environmentalist advice.